What Should I Do?

Acupuncture being performed

Five Reasons to Consider Acupuncture

An alternative medical treatment
Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 12:13 PM

In recent years, Oriental medicine has been growing in popularity, forcing many in the Western medical community to sit up and take notice.  Fifteen years ago, if you asked your primary care physician about acupuncture, he or she might have laughed you out of their office. Today, their responses have changed to something more accepting.  While most will readily admit they don’t understand this ancient practice, there is a growing body of research that indicates it works for many conditions.

How Does Acupuncture Work?

The practice of acupuncture originated thousands of years ago in China with the use of stones.  It operates on the theory that energy, known as “chi” in the East -- similar to bio-electricity in the West -- must flow freely in the body.  If there is a blockage, organs will not receive enough energy to function properly, leading to disease. Acupuncture seeks to open these blockages, allowing the body to heal itself.  This is done by inserting very thin needles into combinations of points along fourteen energy pathways that cover the body.  These pathways are called meridians.

Why Should You Use It?

The following five points offer compelling reasons to consider using acupuncture.

Reason 1: Efficacy

The most obvious reasons you should add a new treatment to your health care arsenal is that it works equally well as, if not better than, your current regimen, while causing fewer side-effects.  Does acupuncture meet either of those criteria?  According to a 1996 review of controlled clinical trials conducted around the world, the World Health Organization (WHO) concluded that acupuncture successfully treats 28 conditions, including the number one affliction plaguing Americans -- hypertension.  The WHO also stated that acupuncture shows promise for treating 52 other conditions.

Since the WHO’s review was conducted, numerous clinical studies have been launched in the West, yielding mixed results.  Many have concluded that acupuncture is no better than “sham” acupuncture -- when patients are needled in non-acupuncture points.  Critics of these studies cite their poor study design, as well as sample sizes that are too small to reach any meaningful conclusions.  Based upon the inconclusive results, more funding needs to be allocated to research a health care modality that Americans are pursuing in record numbers.  In 2007, there were 17.5 million acupuncture visits in the U.S., for an estimated out-of-pocket expense of $1.1 billion.

Before conducting more studies, researchers need to answer two questions.  First, why are so many people looking outside of Western medicine for their answers?  Each year there are roughly one billion doctor visits in the United States. In an overburdened system, where the average doctor appointment lasts only seventeen minutes, it would seem logical that thousands, if not millions, of patients could slip through the cracks.  With so little time to render an accurate diagnosis, it’s no wonder that one in five patient visits results in a psychosomatic diagnosis.   

From the patient’s point of view, a psychosomatic diagnosis often leaves them feeling as if their doctor has marginalized their physical complaints, if not outright dismissed them. Despite classifying symptoms as having a psychological (or mental) origin, doctors are reaching increasingly for their script pads. According to the CDC, 74% of doctor visits result in some form of drug therapy.  Often, these drugs only mask the symptoms without making a dent in curing the underlying imbalance.  Patients feel frustrated by the side effects and prospect of a life dependent upon chemicals.  Soon, they see their only option for finding a lasting cure is to look outside of the current system.

The second, and more important question is, which style of acupuncture should the medical community be testing?  Similar to the many styles of martial arts that exist, there are also many styles of acupuncture. When you consider the diversity of styles, it doesn’t seem appropriate to perform clinical trials on one style and make generalizations about an entire medical practice.  Studies should first seek out the most effective styles for each condition.  Then these styles should be tested against “sham” acupuncture as well as current mainstream therapies.  Otherwise, there will never be accurate data with which to stem the growing rift between Eastern and Western medicine.

Recently, AcupunctureSurvey.com conducted a national survey of acupuncturists in the United States. Comments made by practitioners with more established practices had a common recommendation: Learn one of a handful of styles that are not currently taught in schools.  Many attributed their success in part due to learning these other styles, asserting that the superior results they yielded were responsible for the strong word-of-mouth following they enjoyed with patients.

Having been one of the many patients who slipped through the cracks of Western medicine, my own journey led me through yoga, ayerveda, chiropractic, muscle testing, naturopathy, and eventually Chinese medicine. I landed on this path after being bounced around virtually every Western specialty.  In total, I visited with more than 140 physicians over a fifteen-year period.  Living in Boston afforded me access to many of the world’s leading hospitals and physicians.  After hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical expenses, my cure was not found in Western medicine, it was found in acupuncture … a medical practice ridiculed by many of my Western physicians.  

So, is acupuncture effective?  ABSOLUTELY.  Is all acupuncture created equal?  No.  In the absence of proper medical studies, it’s up to you to do your own research through trial and error.  For me, the fourth style of acupuncture I tried was the one that brought about lasting relief.

One final point I would like to make on this topic is related to the safety of acupuncture when administered by trained professionals.  The risk of injury or death is infinitesimally low -- well below 1%.  Compare this with the fact that the third leading cause of death in the United States is the Western medical system (given as “iatrogenic causes”).

Reason 2: Economy

There are two economic reasons to consider acupuncture.  The first reason relates to your personal economic situation.  For many conditions, acupuncture is a viable economic alternative to drug therapy.  If you average the total cost of obtaining a prescription for chronic conditions (including routine doctor visits, blood tests for liver and kidney damage, and the prescription) the average weekly expense is often higher than that of acupuncture. Factor in acupuncture’s goal of curing many conditions that Western medicine merely aims to contain, and acupuncture begins looking very appealing.

It has been well-documented that job loss and illness go hand-in-hand.  As the economic crisis has rippled its way across the globe, we’ve seen millions of people lose their jobs in its wake.  Job loss bring with it a loss of employer-sponsored health insurance at the exact moment when people become more susceptible to illness.  

One viable solution is community acupuncture.  The Community Acupuncture Network is comprised of clinics that treat people in a group setting at affordable rates.  The cost per appointment ranges from $15 to $35.  At these prices, acupuncture beats most drug therapies on a price comparison.

To understand the second economic reason for using acupuncture, you need to take a macroeconomic view of the US.  During 2011, the first of the Baby Boomers began retiring.  Over the next ten years, the number of retirees is expected to grow by 80% to 72 million people.  With people living longer and the cost of health care skyrocketing, it appears unlikely that we will be able to pay for the services needed to care for the elderly.  

To put this in perspective, some economists estimate that the U.S. entitlement liabilities add to $115 trillion -- Social Security ($15T), Medicare Part D ($20T), and Medicare ($80T).  By comparison, the muc- debated national debt appears rather frivolous at $15 trillion.  

Entitlement liabilities are calculated using a net present value calculation.  As such, the expenses for current and near-term retirees (Baby Boomers) have the largest weight in the calculation.  Depending upon the interest rate, cost of living, and health care inflation assumptions used to calculate NPV, the net result is an additional cost of $1 trillion to $3.5 trillion per year over the next 30 years.  

A quick look at the money supply data published by the Federal Reserve points to a rapid and sustained increase in the monetary base long after QE2 ended in June 2011.  In the eight months following the end of QE2, the thirteen week moving averages for M1 and M2 roughly doubled to 20.4% and 10.0% year-over-year, respectively.  When compared with the annualized sequential quarterly change, the growth shows an accelerating trend reaching 32.3% and 17.5%, respectively.  It’s important to note that the numbers provided by the Fed took the sequential growth figures and simply multiplied them by four.  If the numbers were compounded, arguably a preferable method, M1 and M2 would rise to 36.4% and 18.7%, respectively.

Note: Since this article was originally authored, the thirteen week moving average growth rates for M1 and M2 have declined to 12.7% and 6.8%.

So, why should you begin using acupuncture?  Consider how the increase in entitlement spending will affect the money supply.  The average spending required for Baby Boomers ($2.25T) will expand the money supply at a rate of 25% per year.  Keep in mind that this does not include the current $1.7 trillion deficit. From the money-supply data above, it’s safe to assume that some of this growth is already being printed.  At our Greece-like debt-levels, it’s unlikely investors will want to lend us money to pay for our entitlements in the future.  To pay for it, the US. will have to print money, which sets the stage for hyper-inflation.  Businesses will find it difficult to survive, and millions more people will lose their jobs and benefits. This is the reason gold has risen to $1,700/oz.  

One way the government may decide to combat this scenario is to ration health care spending.  If you are a retiree, you are faced with not receiving care.  This will lead to higher prices.  Inflation will not only increase the cost of care, but you may see your saving erode so fast that you cannot afford care.  Since most companies view doctors as their end customer, patients are left without a voice.  With so many patients and fewer doctors expected in the future, how likely is it that your doctor will accommodate your circumstances when there are so many other paying customers they can treat?  

As previously discussed, community acupuncture offers an affordable solution to your needs.  Additionally, acupuncturists who are not beholden to insurance companies or group practices may find it easier to barter patients' goods and services for their services.  Lastly, acupuncture is a service that offers immediate healing. Writing a prescription for a drug you cannot afford is not a service that offers any healing.

Reason 3: Environment

Whether or not you believe in drug therapy, you may not have a choice if you are one of the 40 million Americans exposed to pharmaceuticals through your drinking water.  This is a testament to how prevalent pharmaceuticals have become in our daily life.  While these exposures only exist in trace amounts, they are on the rise.  There’s no telling how high they will be in twenty years.

Replacing drugs with non-toxic acupuncture will reduce the amount of stress you place on your internal and external ‘environments’.  The body was not designed to consume so many chemicals day in and day out.  As the waistlines of America have grown, so too has the storage space for these chemicals.  Many toxins find homes in fat cells, only to poison the body over lengthy periods as they are released back into the bloodstream.  This can lead to a variety of diseases.

I believe the Chinese medical pharmacy offers a viable solution for many of our maladies.  While it may not offer a cure to the ‘super bugs’ we’ve seen as of late, antibiotics are not exactly the blockbuster category that drug companies have been pushing through direct-to-consumer advertising to earn billions of dollars in profits.  For these indications--heart disease, sexual dysfunction, incontinence, cancer, and so on--Chinese herbal remedies do offer alternatives.  

It’s important to note that roughly a quarter of all pharmaceutical on the market are actually derived from herbs. However, rather than use the entire plant, science extracts what it thinks are the active ingredients without giving thought to how these chemicals interact with the discarded parts of the plant once inside the body.  The East takes a ‘wholistic’ approach to health, whereas the West takes a specialist approach.  If you are reading this article from the confines of a cubicle in a large corporation, you know how well the compartmentalized organizational structure works when departments don’t talk with each other or even know what’s happening two rows away.  This is the same reason the specialized modern medical system is failing so many people.

Lastly, herbal medicine is a sustainable resource that adds to the environment.  It needs to be cultivated, not replaced by a process that destroys our drinking water and food supply.  
 

Reason 4: Energy

As described by Chris Martenson in his video series, The Crash Course, there is a strong argument to be made that the world has already put peak oil in its rear view mirror.  What does this mean?  In the future, each barrel of oil will become increasingly expensive as it becomes more difficult to extract and refine.  We are already seeing this reflected in oil prices, which politicians are conveniently attributing to speculators.  The scary scenario comes when output dwindles to the point where supply equals demand.  Countries that produce oil will begin to hoard their resources, which will dramatically reduce the available supply of oil on the market and further increase prices.  If new energy sources are not discovered and made available on a mass scale, the world could see devastating disruptions to the food supply, not to mention health care.

Consider how much the health care system depends upon energy.  Every diagnostic test, drug, medical supply, and device requires substantial amounts of energy and petroleum to run, produce, and ship.  Now, compare that to acupuncture.  Simply put, you can administer acupuncture by candle light.  Similarly, Chinese medical diagnostic testing relies on something Western doctors have lost touch with … the patient.  The primary diagnosis is performed by palpitating the pulse, along with other body parts, and an examination of the tongue.  In addition to the patient’s history, acupuncturists take into account the patient’s body odor, appearance, and other physical and vocal observations.  Chinese medicine creates a full medical system built around the patient and what you readily have available at your disposal.

If the next crisis we encounter is an energy crisis, acupuncture could be a valuable option for solving your health care needs.

Reason 5: Experience

Transitioning from a position in marketing or accounting to become an acupuncturist is more than a simple career change, it’s a calling.  Many of the people I’ve met who made this leap did so at the end of their own journey through a health care crisis.  It’s these types of experiences that build compassion in a practitioner, which brings us back to the first question asked in Reason 1--why are so many people looking outside of Western medicine?  In addition to seeking answers to their problems, patients are looking for a level of compassion not found in Western medicine.  

Another aspect of experience is ‘age’.  When someone decides to go to medical school, it’s typically within a year or two after graduating from their undergraduate studies, if not immediately after.  They’ve hardly worked or had any real world experience, yet they choose to make an enormous investment in a career at an age when they hardly know themselves. If they don’t like their job or interacting with people, too bad.  Once you go down a path with such an large debt burden, it’s difficult to get off.  Now, fast forward ten years into their career.  If they feel stuck in the wrong career, pressured by hospital administrators to squeeze in more appointments, or have grown tired of a never ending stream of “whining patients”, then the result will be compassion-less care.

Compare that to someone who is thirty-five years old, knows him or herself very well, has worked for a number of years in various positions and companies, and endured their own health care issues.  It would appear the latter person is making a more informed decision that could lead to a happier career choice, and possibly more compassionate care.
 

Conclusion

Acupuncture offers an effective alternative for people who need help during these difficult economic times, as well as people who are interested in protecting the environment and conserving energy.  It’s important to remember that there are many different styles of acupuncture that have developed over thousands of years. For Western science to accurately test acupuncture’s efficacy against “sham” acupuncture or current Western treatments, researchers first need to find the best styles of acupuncture for a given condition. 
 


Chris Titus is a native of Boston, Massachusetts. Over the past fifteen years, he has held various investment research positions with a focus on the health care sector. His first novel, The God Complex, aims to make traditional Chinese medicine more accessible by giving it a mainstream story line. The resulting work offers readers an exciting and painless introduction to acupuncture, martial arts, and herbology. The novel draws upon his own experiences as both a patient in search of a cure and as a health care analyst. He hopes his novel will reach out to patients struggling to find a diagnosis, the families trying to understand their plight, and health care professionals. Chris plans to use the proceeds of his book to return to school and train as an acupuncturist.

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50 Comments

Josey's picture
Josey
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Posts: 40
gallantfarms's picture
gallantfarms
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Posts: 19
Acupuncture

As in many areas, there is evidence both for and against the effectiveness of acupuncture.  There is good evidence that it IS effective for certain conditions, however, so I don't believe it should be automatically dismissed. 

For example:

A scientific review of 16 clinical trials found acupuncture to be effective against dental pain. One study in 1995 showed that pain relief after dental surgery doubled compared to patients receiving placebo or false acupuncture. Other studies in 1999 and 2000 found similar results.

New research from Italy has discovered that out of 80 women receiving acupuncture over six months, fewer reported migraine attacks than those taking painkillers.

In addition, at least 26 randomly controlled trials have shown that acupuncture is proven to be effective against headaches. In 12 of 16 trials comparing acupuncture with a placebo, acupuncture was reported to be significantly more effective.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-149339/Acupuncture-scientific-evidence.html#ixzz1p7mvC1IO

On the other hand, there is also plenty of evidence that many traditional medical approaches are completely ineffective, but that doesn't seem to have any effect on their (expensive and often harmful) use.

For example:

Coronary-bypass surgery consumes more of our medical dollar than any other treatment or procedure. Although it is performed less frequently than the most common abdominal and gynecological operations, it is the leader in terms of equipment and personnel, hospital space, and total associated revenues. The operation is heralded by the popular press, aggrandized by the medical profession, and actively sought by the consuming public. It is the epitome of modern medical technology. Yet as it is now practiced, its net effect on the nation's health is probably negative. The operation does not cure patients, it is scandalously overused, and its high cost drains resources from other areas of need.

Fully half of the bypass operations performed in the United States are unnecessary. A decade of scientific study has shown that except in certain well-defined situations, bypass surgery does not save lives, or even prevent heart attacks: among patients who suffer from coronary-artery disease, those who are treated without surgery enjoy the same survival rates as those who undergo open-heart surgery. Yet many American physicians continue to prescribe surgery immediately upon the appearance of angina, or chest pain.

http://drcranton.com/chelation/cabg1.htm

Damnthematrix's picture
Damnthematrix
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Posts: 3998
very disappointed

Josey wrote:

I'm very dissapointed to see the CM site go down this road. What's next? Homeopathy? 

Why go down this road?  Because WTSHTF, "modern medicine" will fail.  I am under no illusion that all the medical treatments currently available will become unavailable in my old age.  Without cheap and abundant oil, and cheap and abundant cash to pay for it, you can kiss all your drugs goodbye.

Besides, acupuncture has had major positive effects on my back pain, and AFAIC, you cannot compare acupuncture with homeopathy which I too consider to be hocus pocus...

Mike

sofistek's picture
sofistek
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Posts: 615
Hocus Pocus

There are plenty of people who will attest to homeopathy being effective (for example, the author of "When Technology Fails", Matthew Stein, has lots of anecdotal evidence to give). But, scientifically, there have been no medical trials (as far as I know) that show it to be effective (which is hardly surprising since the dilutions involved get rid of ALL molecules of the supposed active ingredient and, since earth water has been here for billions of years and mixed with everything imaginable, all water must be homeopathic). I also don't think that there have been any medical trials that show acupuncture to have any validity.

So, here we are, with Chris happy to post something that definitely fits into the controversial and emotive bracket that he thinks climate change belongs in. I have to echo Josey's comments.

Davos's picture
Davos
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WT?

It wasn't all too long ago that doctors were removing thyroids---or leaching patients for that matter.

All this cr#p was “cutting edge” at the time.

We have little idea how our minds work.  We don't have all the medical answers---yet.

We do know that 1n2 men and 1n3 women have cancer.

After getting to know some people recently I also realized that there is a legalized prescription drug epidemic---and let me be gross---that excretion goes somewhere where chlorine and fluoride are added to it and gets piped back into your drinking water---unless you are on a well.

Bottoms up!

This is what 8 years of advanced education in marketing and God knows what else gets society.

I would NOT bash any alternative to drinking “purified” p#$$ water filled with Prozac, testosterone, Ritalin and Viagra.

And don’t even get me going on what is injected by Monstupido  into our cows. 

Or the antibiotics we eat in chickens.

Below are some scientific economic studies, read Dr. Mercola's work on some medical studies.  Until then, for cripes sake, how about we keep an open mind.  Sometimes the "old way" is the best way.

Mishkin who teaches Economics at Columbia got paid $124,000 to write a report on praising derivatives in Iceland, after the Icelandic crash caused by derivatives he renamed his report on his CV from “Financial Stability in Iceland” to FinancialInstability in Iceland.” Link.

 Dr. Nouriel Roubini who decorates and sculptures his walls with female private parts, (WARNING DON'T CLICK ON THAT LINK UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE GROSSED OUT IT IS VULGAR), whose economic research firm is on the block after losing $2 million dollars and is famous for calling gold a barbarous relic as it doubled and out performs virtually every other asset class. Link, wonder why his economic research firm is 8 figures in the red?

__________________________________

If the medical/pharma industry is 1/100th as jacked as our economic brain trust then who really knows what is right or wrong.  I can assure you that 99% of professional pilots don't know what makes lift because they were taught bee-s aerodynamics.

 

ao's picture
ao
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don't know dip

sofistek wrote:

There are plenty of people who will attest to homeopathy being effective (for example, the author of "When Technology Fails", Matthew Stein, has lots of anecdotal evidence to give). But, scientifically, there have been no medical trials (as far as I know) that show it to be effective (which is hardly surprising since the dilutions involved get rid of ALL molecules of the supposed active ingredient and, since earth water has been here for billions of years and mixed with everything imaginable, all water must be homeopathic). I also don't think that there have been any medical trials that show acupuncture to have any validity.

So, here we are, with Chris happy to post something that definitely fits into the controversial and emotive bracket that he thinks climate change belongs in. I have to echo Josey's comments.

So here we are with sofistek taking a potshot at Chris again.

First of all, there have been double blind studies performed showing the effectiveness of homeopathy.  Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.  And just because homeopathy doesn't work for the reasons its proponents claim, doesn't mean it doesn't work clinically.  I'm not going to repeat myself here so go search the archives for a previous discussion I had on this subject with Jim.

Your second statement about earth water being homeopathic is ludicrous.  Given your line of reasoning, you ought to be able to eat soil, water, and air and thrive because they have all the elements necessary for your survival.   

And, contrary to your certainty of the opposite, there is abundant evidence, both scientific and clinical, that accupuncture works WHEN the practitioner knows what they are doing (and I've seen Western accupuncturists including MDs who didn't and there are plenty of studies performed by those who didn't) and when it is applied to appropriate conditions and situations (which it often ISN'T).  But I guess by your line of thinking, the Chinese spent 3000 years imagining their results.

I find it interesting how people can comment with alleged authority on something that they know little or nothing about, have never had done on them, have never seen practiced firsthand, have never practiced themselves firsthand, and have never studied.

These statements remind me of the allegedly scientific claims of pharmaceutically paid prosti-docs who repeatedly rant on the MSM that  there is no benefit from various nutritional supplements, quoting one or two poorly done studies, when there are literally thousands of studies stating the opposite and attesting to their efficacy.

joemanc's picture
joemanc
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Posts: 834
Whoa

What is with the negativity? Geez guys...have an open mind...

I've never had accupuncture, although I know a few people, including my manager, who have had it and they can vouch for it.

FWIW...I've had a couple of Reiki sessions recently. My elbow started bothering me last year while shoveling soil and snow and splitting wood. Thinking it's tennis elbow, or bursa. So far, so good after 2 sessions. The throbbing or grabbing in my elbow is mostly gone. Hoping 1 more session will take care of what remains. Let's all keep an open mind towards alternative medicine. Might not work for everyone but it has worked for me.

SagerXX's picture
SagerXX
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Posts: 2099
FWIW

I use acupuncture for general stress reduction when I'm getting beaten from pillar to post by Life.

I also found relief for TMJ in two sessions back in 2004 (my first experience w/acupuncture).

IME it's quite effective. YMMV.

Viva -- Sager

jamster777's picture
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Nutrition

I believe that there is a lot to Eastern medicine that the West ignores because it doesn't fit well into our scientific materialism worldview.  As others have pointed out, many are blind to the fact that,  despite our astronomical investments in medical research and technologies, our health is pretty terrible. We have traded a set of "diseases of poverty" like dysentery and pneumonia for "diseases of prosperity" like cancer and heart disease.  

My philosophy is to minimize illness through healthy living, especially with regard to nutrition.  Colin Campbell did an amazingly comprehensive study on the relationship between diet and many diseases in "The China Study."  He has a book by that title that is an enjoyable read, and there are many youtube videos on it.  Basically he found that you can nearly eliminate the occurence of many diseases (cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc) simply by keeping your animal protein consumption under 5% of your caloric intake (average in America is over 30%). Just to give you an example of how surprising his results were:  in lab experiments with rats that were dosed with very high concentrations of carcenogens, 100% of the test group eating 20% protein got cancer tumors, and a shocking 0% of the of the group eating 5% protein got cancer.  

Anyways, whether you use Eastern or Western medicine you should pay attention to nutrition!

Titus's picture
Titus
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Posts: 4
Clinical Trials

Here's a link to clinical trials that have demonstrated acupuncture's effectiveness.  Note that all of these studies have been written up in major Western medical journals, passing rather rigorous peer reviews.  

http://www.godcomplexnovel.com/acupuncture-clinical-trials/

sofistek's picture
sofistek
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Posts: 615
ao wrote:So here we are with

ao wrote:
So here we are with sofistek taking a potshot at Chris again.

First of all, there have been double blind studies performed showing the effectiveness of homeopathy.  Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quite right. This article itself reports that trials have been mixed. So there, presumably, must have been trials that did show some positive results. As such results are clearly not repeatable, that must give cause for concern that acupuncture is similar to homoeopathy - some people say it works, some people had no improvement. What I was highlighting was that this is clearly an emotive subject that Chris is happy to put up on his site. Why is it different from climate change, in that respect?

ao wrote:
Your second statement about earth water being homeopathic is ludicrous.  Given your line of reasoning, you ought to be able to eat soil, water, and air and thrive because they have all the elements necessary for your survival.

That's not my reasoning at all. It is the logical conclusion of homoeopathic reasoning, not mine. If it takes thorough mixing and dilution of the active element to get an effective homoeopathic remedy, then all the water on earth is pretty much good to go. I suppose one might have to ensure that there are no measurable molecules of the active ingredient, but other than that, rain water will do the trick.

ao wrote:
I find it interesting how people can comment with alleged authority on something that they know little or nothing about, have never had done on them, have never seen practiced firsthand, have never practiced themselves firsthand, and have never studied.

I'm surprised you find that interesting. It's pretty commonplace. Would you just try anything that someone claims was effective for them, just on their say-so, especially if you didn't know them personally?

ao wrote:
These statements remind me of the allegedly scientific claims of pharmaceutically paid prosti-docs who repeatedly rant on the MSM that  there is no benefit from various nutritional supplements, quoting one or two poorly done studies, when there are literally thousands of studies stating the opposite and attesting to their efficacy.

Actually, there appears to be very limited eficacy of nutritional supplements, according to two books (by doctors citing lots of medical research) I've read recently - Gut and Psychology Syndrome and Deep Nutirition.

Tony

sofistek's picture
sofistek
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
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Posts: 615
joemanc wrote: What is with

joemanc wrote:

What is with the negativity? Geez guys...have an open mind...

I've never had accupuncture, although I know a few people, including my manager, who have had it and they can vouch for it.

FWIW...I've had a couple of Reiki sessions recently. My elbow started bothering me last year while shoveling soil and snow and splitting wood. Thinking it's tennis elbow, or bursa. So far, so good after 2 sessions. The throbbing or grabbing in my elbow is mostly gone. Hoping 1 more session will take care of what remains. Let's all keep an open mind towards alternative medicine. Might not work for everyone but it has worked for me.

I'm actually open minded about acupucture (honestly, ao), although there doesn't appear to be solid evidence for it (for a long time, I thought acupuncture was a well understood and accepted treatment). My points were more to do with the appearance of such a controversial subject here.

I also had an elbow problem, after pulling particularly stubborn weeds. It seemed to get worse for days. So I stopped scything, weeding and other arm heavy activities for a while and put on an elbow support. It took a few weeks but it has just about healed itself - the odd twinge left.

Tony

Saffron's picture
Saffron
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Posts: 238
jamster777 wrote: My

jamster777 wrote:

My philosophy is to minimize illness through healthy living, especially with regard to nutrition.  Colin Campbell did an amazingly comprehensive study on the relationship between diet and many diseases in "The China Study."  He has a book by that title that is an enjoyable read, and there are many youtube videos on it.  Basically he found that you can nearly eliminate the occurence of many diseases (cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc) simply by keeping your animal protein consumption under 5% of your caloric intake (average in America is over 30%). Just to give you an example of how surprising his results were:  in lab experiments with rats that were dosed with very high concentrations of carcenogens, 100% of the test group eating 20% protein got cancer tumors, and a shocking 0% of the of the group eating 5% protein got cancer.  

Anyways, whether you use Eastern or Western medicine you should pay attention to nutrition!

Jamster, agree wholeheartedly that we need to pay attention to nutrition, so I hope you don't mind my pointing out that the Colin Campbell China study has a few problems. From this article (http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/) by Denise Minger:

In sum, “The China Study” is a compelling collection of carefully chosen data. Unfortunately for both health seekers and the scientific community, Campbell appears to exclude relevant information when it indicts plant foods as causative of disease, or when it shows potential benefits for animal products. This presents readers with a strongly misleading interpretation of the original China Study data, as well as a slanted perspective of nutritional research from other arenas (including some that Campbell himself conducted).

~ s

 

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ao
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sofistek wrote: ao wrote:So

sofistek wrote:

ao wrote:
So here we are with sofistek taking a potshot at Chris again.

First of all, there have been double blind studies performed showing the effectiveness of homeopathy.  Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quite right. This article itself reports that trials have been mixed. So there, presumably, must have been trials that did show some positive results. As such results are clearly not repeatable, that must give cause for concern that acupuncture is similar to homoeopathy - some people say it works, some people had no improvement. What I was highlighting was that this is clearly an emotive subject that Chris is happy to put up on his site. Why is it different from climate change, in that respect?

ao wrote:
Your second statement about earth water being homeopathic is ludicrous.  Given your line of reasoning, you ought to be able to eat soil, water, and air and thrive because they have all the elements necessary for your survival.
That's not my reasoning at all. It is the logical conclusion of homoeopathic reasoning, not mine. If it takes thorough mixing and dilution of the active element to get an effective homoeopathic remedy, then all the water on earth is pretty much good to go. I suppose one might have to ensure that there are no measurable molecules of the active ingredient, but other than that, rain water will do the trick.

ao wrote:
I find it interesting how people can comment with alleged authority on something that they know little or nothing about, have never had done on them, have never seen practiced firsthand, have never practiced themselves firsthand, and have never studied.
I'm surprised you find that interesting. It's pretty commonplace. Would you just try anything that someone claims was effective for them, just on their say-so, especially if you didn't know them personally?

ao wrote:
These statements remind me of the allegedly scientific claims of pharmaceutically paid prosti-docs who repeatedly rant on the MSM that  there is no benefit from various nutritional supplements, quoting one or two poorly done studies, when there are literally thousands of studies stating the opposite and attesting to their efficacy.
Actually, there appears to be very limited eficacy of nutritional supplements, according to two books (by doctors citing lots of medical research) I've read recently - Gut and Psychology Syndrome and Deep Nutirition.

Tony

Regarding the earth water and homeopathy thing, it's obvious you don't get it and I don't think my explaining it more would help with your comprehension.

Regarding your claim for very limited efficacy of nutritional supplements and the two books you cite, I haven't read the books but it does not appear that either one is written about the subject of nutritional supplements.  What is "lots of medical research" because authors from Alan Gaby to Gary Null have written books SPECIFICALLY about this subject and cite THOUSANDS of peer reviewed studies supporting nutritional supplementation.  My guess is your authors can cite no more than a handful at most.  Alan Gaby is an MD and Gary Null is a PhD.  I've heard Gary Null debate various MDs on the issue and, quite frankly, he made them look like idiots in their lack of familiarity with the full scope of the research out there.  Nutritional supplements are obviously no substitute for top quality food but that's not the issue here.  That's what they're called SUPPLEMENTS.

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Titus
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Mixed Results & "Sham" Acupuncture

I would like to clarify a couple of points here:

This article itself reports that trials have been mixed. So there, presumably, must have been trials that did show some positive results. As such results are clearly not repeatable,

The way I used "mixed results" in the article could have two meanings.  Yes, it could mean that the experiments were not repeatable.  It could also mean that acupuncture worked for some conditions and not for others.  As I referenced in the article, the WHO's report stated that acupuncture was determined to be effective for 28 conditions.  And, from my prior post here (link below), there have been conditions for which the results are repeatable.

http://www.godcomplexnovel.com/acupuncture-clinical-trials/

Over the past twenty years, researchers have been testing acupuncture for everything.  One of the main reasons I wrote this article was to highlight that there are many different styles of acupuncture.  Not all acupuncture is equal.  Having been through several styles in my own journey, as described in the book, I can tell you that the difference between them can be night and day.  One way in which I describe the variety of styles is to liken them to martial arts.  Imagine a UFC fight that pits Tae Kwon Do against Brazilian jujitsu.  Both are martial arts.  Both will help you defend yourself against an untrained individual.  However, when compared against each other, jujitsu wins almost every time.  In my research, I found that many of the studies reporting that acupuncture was no better than "sham" acupuncture also reported that both were better than doing nothing.  So, "any acupuncture" is better than none in treating illness, just like "any martial art" is better than none in defending yourself.  When you consider that there are many styles of acupuncture with varying degrees in effectiveness, a logical conclusion might be that the style of acupuncture being tested may simply be a "sham" compared to the more effective styles ... the study was literally testing "sham" against "sham".   This is why I state in my conclusion that researchers need to first determine the most effective styles of acupuncture for a condition and then test it against "sham" acupuncture, as well as current Western treatments.

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sofistek wrote: I also had

sofistek wrote:

I also had an elbow problem, after pulling particularly stubborn weeds. It seemed to get worse for days. So I stopped scything, weeding and other arm heavy activities for a while and put on an elbow support. It took a few weeks but it has just about healed itself - the odd twinge left.

I stopped shoveling too once the weather cooled down last fall...then it snowed and I shoveled again, and my elbow hurt again(although the pain and twinging never had disappeared), which caused me to seek a remedy. What works for you may not work for me, and vice versa. But at least we have options.

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sofistek wrote: What I was

sofistek wrote:

What I was highlighting was that this is clearly an emotive subject that Chris is happy to put up on his site. Why is it different from climate change, in that respect?

Because it's his site and he doesn't choose to.

Q:  What's the difference between a 2 week old Golden Retriever puppy and sofistek carrying on about what subject matter Chris posts (or not) on his site?

A:  After 6 weeks the pup stops whining.

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switters
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Those who have trouble

Those who have trouble accepting the "energy meridian" theory of acupuncture should read this:

http://chriskresser.com/acupuncture

Acupuncture works by promoting blood flow, reducing inflammation and restoring homeostasis.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about acupuncture research, because so-called placebo acupuncture (puncturing the skin or stimulating the skin at non-acupuncture points) is a physiologically active treatment - and thus not suitable as a control.

The community acupuncture model, where treatments are offered on a sliding scale (usually $15-$45 per treatment), is gaining strength and making acupuncture accessible and affordable to most people.

In many ways it's an ideal modality for post-transition health care: cheap, safe, relatively low-tech (other than manufacture of the needles - but there are other options there), local and not difficult to teach and learn.

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Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote: A: 

Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

A:  After 6 weeks the pup stops whining.

ROFLMAO!

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sofistek wrote:. What I was

sofistek wrote:
. What I was highlighting was that this is clearly an emotive subject that Chris is happy to put up on his site. Why is it different from climate change, in that respect?

Oh come on.  It's not JUST that the topic is a controversial and emotive subject for some, but the degree of it also matters too.... to imply that acupuncture elicits the same degree of controversy and emotive response in the average person or general public as climate change is quite silly.  Also, another factor it appears is past experience and whether the forums experience repeated trouble discussing a given subject without devolving to angry rants and flames.  The forum guidelines specifically refer to unfortunate prior forum experiences as the reason for making some topics limited or off-limits.  Of course on that basis, it's always possible that acupuncture can be given the same treatment if enough conflict and strife arises from the discussion here.  I don't have any stake in the subject, but I hope it doesn't happen because that means the forum community as a whole has failed.

Ultimately it's the host's decision, accept it or move on.  The topic of firearms has also been limited to one thread as well, but you hardly ever see us firearm enthusiasts complaining about it. 

- Nick

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Supplements

ao wrote:
Regarding your claim for very limited efficacy of nutritional supplements and the two books you cite, I haven't read the books but it does not appear that either one is written about the subject of nutritional supplements.  What is "lots of medical research" because authors from Alan Gaby to Gary Null have written books SPECIFICALLY about this subject and cite THOUSANDS of peer reviewed studies supporting nutritional supplementation.  My guess is your authors can cite no more than a handful at most.  Alan Gaby is an MD and Gary Null is a PhD.  I've heard Gary Null debate various MDs on the issue and, quite frankly, he made them look like idiots in their lack of familiarity with the full scope of the research out there.  Nutritional supplements are obviously no substitute for top quality food but that's not the issue here.  That's what they're called SUPPLEMENTS.

The books are not specifically about nutritional supplements but do cover them. Both reference research extensively though I haven't checked for nutritional supplements (mainly vitamins and minerals) though the first definitely does. You're right that supplements are no substitute for the right foods and, in some cases, they may be needed in the short term but once the diet is sorted out, there should be no need for them (after all, we didn't evolve needing supplements).

Tony

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nickbert wrote:Oh come on. 

nickbert wrote:
Oh come on.  It's not JUST that the topic is a controversial and emotive subject for some, but the degree of it also matters too.... to imply that acupuncture elicits the same degree of controversy and emotive response in the average person or general public as climate change is quite silly.  Also, another factor it appears is past experience and whether the forums experience repeated trouble discussing a given subject without devolving to angry rants and flames.  The forum guidelines specifically refer to unfortunate prior forum experiences as the reason for making some topics limited or off-limits.  Of course on that basis, it's always possible that acupuncture can be given the same treatment if enough conflict and strife arises from the discussion here.  I don't have any stake in the subject, but I hope it doesn't happen because that means the forum community as a whole has failed.

Ultimately it's the host's decision, accept it or move on.  The topic of firearms has also been limited to one thread as well, but you hardly ever see us firearm enthusiasts complaining about it.

I think climate change is qualitatively differrent from firearms and, yes, from acupuncture. It is one aspect, and a big one, of our predicament but it is not being covered except in shady corners of the site (and being covered quite well, at the moment). The only reason I compared it to this thread was that the opening comment made me realise that controversial and emotive subjects do get covered, but, for some reason, not climate change. I've popped into the site quite often for years and don't recall climate change ever being covered in a mainstream way, so I don't think your hypothesis works, unless I'm mistaken about coverage.

Of course it's Chris's site and he can do what he wants; I'm pretty sure I've said that before. But that doesn't stop people making suggestions.

Dogs_In_A_Pile's joke was very funny, except that I'm not whining; just pointing out a discrepancy.

Tony

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Alright, break it up!

Well, that was quite a response for such a small comment. I must say, it was a little fun:)

Okay guys, I said I was very dissapointed, not disgusted, lived, mad as hell, or even angry. Just very dissapointed. I'll admit  that some of the evidence on acupuncture's effectivness is mixed and inconclusive in some aspects but until you can prove "energy fields" and specify exactly what kind of energy it is, then you may as well call it magic. As for homeopathy, there is zero evidence that it is nothing but water. The claim is that the more diluted the substance is, the more powerful it is. I would invite anyone to go down to your local homeopath retailer, buy several bottles of homepathic sleeping pills and try your best to overdose. You'll be waiting a long time because it won't happen, because it's water.

Here are the facts about homeopathy:

  • No Ingredients: Homeopathic remedies are so extremely dilute that most do not contain a single atom of their claimed active ingredient. The most popular homeopathic remedy, oscillococcinum, is based on a dilution of one part duck liver to 10^400 parts of water. 10^400 is the number 1 with 400 zeroes after it. To make such a dilution, you’d have to mix a single molecule of duck liver with more matter than exists in the entire known universe.

     

  • No Testing: Homeopathic remedies are exempted from regulations requiring drugs to prove they’re effective and accurately labeled with respect to dosage and potency. What’s more, homeopathic remedies were never even tested by their inventors to make sure they work. Homeopathic remedies are invented by a process homeopaths call “proving”: they give a substance to a healthy person, observe the symptoms it causes, and then take it on faith that homeopathic doses of the same substance will cure those symptoms. For example, coffee causes sleeplessness—that’s all homeopaths need to know in order to prescribe homeopathically-diluted coffee as sleeping pills, called “coffea cruda.” According to homeopathic principles, there’s no need to test whether it actually helps anyone sleep.

     

  • No Facts: Major pharmacy chains like CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid sell useless homeopathic products right alongside real medicine, with no warning to consumers. Manufacturers and retailers profit by denying customers the facts they need to make up their minds. U.S. law exempts homeopathy from certain rules that govern drugs and nutritional supplements, so manufacturers can market homeopathic remedies for the treatment of illnesses despite the fact that reputable studies show homeopathy to work no better than dummy pills made of plain sugar.
  • Okay, I'm done. Have a good Friday and hope your weather is good:)
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Reason 5: Experience?

Titus,

Thanks for taking the time to share on the site, and congrats on completing your novel!

I agree that Economy, Environment and Energy are important considerations. No surprise there as they are the Three "E"s of the Crash Course. For Experience (compassion) however, my personal preference would be for a disgruntled medical school grad over a kindly accountant-turned-acupuncturist. Maybe I'm just fortunate that I haven't had to spend more than a few minutes with any particular doctor. None of these reasons are important, though, unless the medical treatment works. I'm similarly skeptical as Josey and sofistek. (Like sofistek, I also thought of climate change as soon as I saw the title.) Acupuncture, at best, seems like an elaborate way to induce a placebo effect. You nearly admit as much when you say:

Titus wrote:

In my research, I found that many of the studies reporting that acupuncture was no better than "sham" acupuncture also reported that both were better than doing nothing. 

In a SHTF scenario, I doubt we're going to be too concerned about sore elbows and knees, or fertility(!), or even hypertension. We'll be dealing with infections, and broken bones and maybe even bullet wounds. I think alcohol would be more helpful than needles. Speaking of which, can we get a "What Should I Do?" on Home Brewing?

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Josey wrote:Well, that was

Josey wrote:

Well, that was quite a response for such a small comment. I must say, it was a little fun:)

Okay guys, I said I was very dissapointed, not disgusted, lived, mad as hell, or even angry. Just very dissapointed. I'll admit  that some of the evidence on acupuncture's effectivness is mixed and inconclusive in some aspects but until you can prove "energy fields" and specify exactly what kind of energy it is, then you may as well call it magic. As for homeopathy, there is zero evidence that it is nothing but water. The claim is that the more diluted the substance is, the more powerful it is. I would invite anyone to go down to your local homeopath retailer, buy several bottles of homepathic sleeping pills and try your best to overdose. You'll be waiting a long time because it won't happen, because it's water.

Here are the facts about homeopathy:

  • No Ingredients: Homeopathic remedies are so extremely dilute that most do not contain a single atom of their claimed active ingredient. The most popular homeopathic remedy, oscillococcinum, is based on a dilution of one part duck liver to 10^400 parts of water. 10^400 is the number 1 with 400 zeroes after it. To make such a dilution, you’d have to mix a single molecule of duck liver with more matter than exists in the entire known universe.

     

  • No Testing: Homeopathic remedies are exempted from regulations requiring drugs to prove they’re effective and accurately labeled with respect to dosage and potency. What’s more, homeopathic remedies were never even tested by their inventors to make sure they work. Homeopathic remedies are invented by a process homeopaths call “proving”: they give a substance to a healthy person, observe the symptoms it causes, and then take it on faith that homeopathic doses of the same substance will cure those symptoms. For example, coffee causes sleeplessness—that’s all homeopaths need to know in order to prescribe homeopathically-diluted coffee as sleeping pills, called “coffea cruda.” According to homeopathic principles, there’s no need to test whether it actually helps anyone sleep.

     

  • No Facts: Major pharmacy chains like CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid sell useless homeopathic products right alongside real medicine, with no warning to consumers. Manufacturers and retailers profit by denying customers the facts they need to make up their minds. U.S. law exempts homeopathy from certain rules that govern drugs and nutritional supplements, so manufacturers can market homeopathic remedies for the treatment of illnesses despite the fact that reputable studies show homeopathy to work no better than dummy pills made of plain sugar.
  • Okay, I'm done. Have a good Friday and hope your weather is good:)

____________________________________________________________________________________

Until recently I didn't comprehend the meaning of what Hawkings wrote.  I get it now.  You might want to give it some careful consideration my friend.

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.”~Stephen Hawkings

I flew between 250,000 and 500,000 passengers based on scientifically proven facts of aerodynamics---that I later learned were bogus, and were taught to us because they “sounded good.”

As of 2006 this country turned out 41,625 PhD’s in economics---of which probably 1 was bright enough to realize the $hit he had been taught was as accurate as Bernoulli’s Law and as a result retrained himself in Austrian Economics and caught the biggest bubble in history.

There is something I discovered, it is yet uncovered, it is called “Scholarly Economic Capture.”  It exists in every field.  You base your merits on “Testing & Facts”.

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lHvTKzfu8Q&feature=player_embedded"

We have no idea what life is.  We have no idea what 99% of our brain does.  We have NO idea what science is or isn't biased.

And before you go talking about papers, and facts you might want to watch that video on Scholarly Economic Capture.  If you think the pharma field is more legit then the economics field you might want to ask CM his impression, last I recall, he was in both.

I would take facts and testing and give them a lot less value than thousands of years of trial and error.

These days---QUITE OFTEN---the facts are scewed by psychopaths who can write $124,000 checks.

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ao
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pedestrian thinking

Josey wrote:

Well, that was quite a response for such a small comment. I must say, it was a little fun:)

Okay guys, I said I was very dissapointed, not disgusted, lived, mad as hell, or even angry. Just very dissapointed. I'll admit  that some of the evidence on acupuncture's effectivness is mixed and inconclusive in some aspects but until you can prove "energy fields" and specify exactly what kind of energy it is, then you may as well call it magic. As for homeopathy, there is zero evidence that it is nothing but water. The claim is that the more diluted the substance is, the more powerful it is. I would invite anyone to go down to your local homeopath retailer, buy several bottles of homepathic sleeping pills and try your best to overdose. You'll be waiting a long time because it won't happen, because it's water.

Here are the facts about homeopathy:

  • No Ingredients: Homeopathic remedies are so extremely dilute that most do not contain a single atom of their claimed active ingredient. The most popular homeopathic remedy, oscillococcinum, is based on a dilution of one part duck liver to 10^400 parts of water. 10^400 is the number 1 with 400 zeroes after it. To make such a dilution, you’d have to mix a single molecule of duck liver with more matter than exists in the entire known universe.

     

  • No Testing: Homeopathic remedies are exempted from regulations requiring drugs to prove they’re effective and accurately labeled with respect to dosage and potency. What’s more, homeopathic remedies were never even tested by their inventors to make sure they work. Homeopathic remedies are invented by a process homeopaths call “proving”: they give a substance to a healthy person, observe the symptoms it causes, and then take it on faith that homeopathic doses of the same substance will cure those symptoms. For example, coffee causes sleeplessness—that’s all homeopaths need to know in order to prescribe homeopathically-diluted coffee as sleeping pills, called “coffea cruda.” According to homeopathic principles, there’s no need to test whether it actually helps anyone sleep.

     

  • No Facts: Major pharmacy chains like CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid sell useless homeopathic products right alongside real medicine, with no warning to consumers. Manufacturers and retailers profit by denying customers the facts they need to make up their minds. U.S. law exempts homeopathy from certain rules that govern drugs and nutritional supplements, so manufacturers can market homeopathic remedies for the treatment of illnesses despite the fact that reputable studies show homeopathy to work no better than dummy pills made of plain sugar.
  • Okay, I'm done. Have a good Friday and hope your weather is good:)

Ever hear of an EEG, EKG, EMG, etc?  Ever measure galvanic skin resistance?  Ever see correlations with accupuncture points?  Every wonder how certain fishes like sharks use electrolocation?  Every wonder about an explanation for objectively verifiable out-of-the-body experiences?  Ever really study accupuncture in depth?. 

Every consider the possibility of parallels to the concept of vacuum energy.  Ever really study homeopathy in depth?

Nope, didn't think so.

These statements remind me of the 1930s high school physics textbook that I have, that with great solemnity and authority states uncategorically that it is impossible to split an atom. 

As I said ... don't know dip.

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ao
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amateur vs. pro

sofistek wrote:

ao wrote:
Regarding your claim for very limited efficacy of nutritional supplements and the two books you cite, I haven't read the books but it does not appear that either one is written about the subject of nutritional supplements.  What is "lots of medical research" because authors from Alan Gaby to Gary Null have written books SPECIFICALLY about this subject and cite THOUSANDS of peer reviewed studies supporting nutritional supplementation.  My guess is your authors can cite no more than a handful at most.  Alan Gaby is an MD and Gary Null is a PhD.  I've heard Gary Null debate various MDs on the issue and, quite frankly, he made them look like idiots in their lack of familiarity with the full scope of the research out there.  Nutritional supplements are obviously no substitute for top quality food but that's not the issue here.  That's what they're called SUPPLEMENTS.
The books are not specifically about nutritional supplements but do cover them. Both reference research extensively though I haven't checked for nutritional supplements (mainly vitamins and minerals) though the first definitely does. You're right that supplements are no substitute for the right foods and, in some cases, they may be needed in the short term but once the diet is sorted out, there should be no need for them (after all, we didn't evolve needing supplements).

Tony

What does "reference research extensively" mean?  If they truly reference extensively, they wouldn't make those claims.  They reference a handful of cherry picked, poorly done studies.  I'm talking THOUSANDS of references that prove what I'm stating. 

Theoretically, there should be no need for supplements, in an ideal world.  Just like there shouldn't be a need for police or military in an ideal world.  The only problem is, we don't live in an ideal world.

You didn't evolve eating genetically modified foods grown on land that grows the same crops again and again with acid rain leached soils  depleted of microflora that enhance plant absorption of minerals using chemical growth accelerants and treated with pesticides and herbicides.  You also didn't evolve eating packaged, canned, bottled, frozen, refined, and processed foods.  All those factors and more affect your nutritional requirements.

But I guess you're healthy so you don't have to worry about it anyway.  I'll continue to take my supplements and eat well and exercise so I have the energy to work 60 hour weeks, never get colds or flus, never miss work or play due to sickness, can keep up physically and more with folks half my age, and not need any medication.  YMMV.

P.S. While your ancestors may have evolved, mine were created.;-)

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Josey
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Don't know dip

I'm all ears. Please go on.

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Josey
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Posts: 40
Don't know dip

I'm all ears. Please go on.

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bluestone
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Posts: 263
Ok here's my two cents: To

Ok here's my two cents:

To start off with, I'll let you know that I am a physician (urologist).  Here are a few of my thoughts

1.  Best medicine ever created: Placebo.   I have literally read hundreds of medical journal articles.  It never ceases to amaze me what that Placebo medication can do.  Can be used to help in nearly every disease process.

2. Most important modern medicine invention ever:  IV fluids.  Saves lives left and right, day and night.  And no one seems to show any appreciation for this wonderful invention.  IV fluids can be used to prevent death in many situations: sepsis, hemorrhage, dehydration, cardiac failure, etc.  My suggestion: at least learn how to start an IV and stock up on needles, IV tubing, and saline.  When TSHTF, infectious diseases, particularly the various forms of gastroenteritis will be a major problem.  Being able to administer IV fluids  will be the most important life saving measure.  My recommendation:  DO NOT TRY ACUPUNCTURE to cure a secretory diarrhea.

4.  My theory on the potential benefit to  acupuncture:  #1 The TLC.  I do recall one study (my apologies, i dont have the reference) of chronic back pain using acupuncture versus sham (acupuncture with toothpicks).  No difference in results, however, both groups showed improvement compared to pretreatment status.  This may underscore an important point however.  Human beings respond to human touch and being cared for.  This is often lacking within western medicine, within the average american family and within our society.  #2.  there may be a neuromodulatory effect from acupuncture working through sensory nerves.  These benefits have been seen in a variety of nerve stimulators, and seems plausible that acupuncture could work through a similar mechanism

5.  If you feel that acupuncture works for you, then do it.   Although i have not read the literature, I believe there could be many applications.  However, be reasonable in your expectations.  And of course, explore other forms of alternative non pertoleum based medicine.  it may be the only thing we've got in the not too distant future.

6.  Don't be naive to think that going the "natural" way is always good for your own well being.   Our bodies do self destruct eventually.  this is the natural way.  we all have to die someday.   Let's think about it.  a herd is not very healthy if it has too many elderly and feeble individuals.  It is actually better for the herd for those individuals to die off so they do not continue to drain too many resources.  I seen this in urology very frequently.  As men get older, their prostates get a little too large.  Eventually this leads to bladder outlet obstruction, which eventually may lead to urinary retention, which can lead to renal failure and death.  Now the "evil" doctor will use an "evil" medication produced by the "evil big pharma" to reverse this process.  Doing things the natural and perhaps intended way will lead to death.

Brian

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ao
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the right tool for the right job

Stoicsmile wrote:

We'll be dealing with infections, and broken bones and maybe even bullet wounds.

In ancient Asia, who used accupuncture, moxibustion, and related aspects of Oriental medicine more than anyone?  Warriors injured or wounded in combat.  Many Asian martial arts traditions teach healing arts ranging from accupuncture to qi gong right alongside the combative arts.  The two are complementary.  Striking certain acupuncture points and meridians can amplify the effect of a blow.  Treating other accupuncture points allows more rapid recovery from a blow.   

Also, did anyone say the use of accupuncture PRECLUDES the use of Western medicine?  Anyone with intelligence would use them complementarily and appropiately.  Western medicine shines when applied to acute problems but often tends to fall short when applied to certain chronic problems whereas complementary medicine often shines under the opposite circumstances.  That's why integrative medicine is becoming so popular.

BTW, regarding broken bones, I observed someone in a judo class sustain a fractured tibia from a sweep.  The Japanese judomaster (also trained in Oriental medicine) set the fracture, applied a bamboo splint, a bone healing poultice, and did some accupuncture.  The person was full weightbearing in 2 weeks and returned to practice in 3 weeks.  With Western medicine, they would have been in a cast for 6 weeks. 

You don't know what you don't know.

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sofistek
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Posts: 615
Turn around

ao wrote:
What does "reference research extensively" mean?  If they truly reference extensively, they wouldn't make those claims.  They reference a handful of cherry picked, poorly done studies.

But you said you'd never read those books. Have you just skimmed through them or something? By reference research extensively, I mean the books are littered with such references.

ao wrote:
Theoretically, there should be no need for supplements, in an ideal world.

It doesn't need to be an ideal world. Humans need certain nutrition to live and they have always gotten it from natural foods, until recently. They can get it from natural foods again though, in some cases, supplementation may be necessary for a while.

ao wrote:
But I guess you're healthy so you don't have to worry about it anyway.

Not so. Yes, I'm reasonably healthy, though a long way from perfect. I abused my body for 50-odd years with all sorts of foods that are essentially toxic (though mildly). I think that's had an impact and I've recently changed my diet, as much as I can, to eat more natural foods. So far, there are noticeable impacts, none of them bad, though I think I'll have to keep it up for a year to make that judgement.

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Re: bluestone - Placebo; IV; TLC

Brian,

Excellent commentary! Thank so much. I didn't realize how important IV fluids could be until my mother's recent trip to the emergency room. Seemed like the most important thing they did was to hook her up to an IV right away.

I downplayed (or even mocked) the importance of TLC in my post but I agree that it can have a positive effect on people - probably more than I realize.

The unfortunate paradox of placebos is that they are only effective if we are being deceived about their efficacy - either by others or by ourselves.

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lost cause

sofistek wrote:

ao wrote:
What does "reference research extensively" mean?  If they truly reference extensively, they wouldn't make those claims.  They reference a handful of cherry picked, poorly done studies.
But you said you'd never read those books. Have you just skimmed through them or something? By reference research extensively, I mean the books are littered with such references.

ao wrote:
Theoretically, there should be no need for supplements, in an ideal world.
It doesn't need to be an ideal world. Humans need certain nutrition to live and they have always gotten it from natural foods, until recently. They can get it from natural foods again though, in some cases, supplementation may be necessary for a while.

ao wrote:
But I guess you're healthy so you don't have to worry about it anyway.
Not so. Yes, I'm reasonably healthy, though a long way from perfect. I abused my body for 50-odd years with all sorts of foods that are essentially toxic (though mildly). I think that's had an impact and I've recently changed my diet, as much as I can, to eat more natural foods. So far, there are noticeable impacts, none of them bad, though I think I'll have to keep it up for a year to make that judgement.

In reviewing the bibliography of Deep Nutrition, one of the books you are citing, she has 397 references.  Some are simply from "opinion" books and articles, some are about genetics,  some are about anthropology, some are about exercise, some are about body types, some are about general health, some are about general nutrition, and some are about supplements.  Many of the ones about supplements are the standard cherry picked references of poorly designed, poorly executed, faulty, distorted, or pharmaceutically influenced studies of the anti-supplement establishment.  The books I'm discussing have THOUSANDS of peer reviewed references about nutritional supplementation.  They overwhelm the book you cite in their information, accuracy, and thoroughness.  For Pete's sake, Deep Nutrition is a book where the author cites the toughness of the appearance of  Geronimo as an example of his good nutrition!!!  Did you ever read such nonsense in your life!!!  I can show her dozens of tough looking thugs in Detroit whose nutrition amounts to slurping from a toxic waste dump. 

When you're talking about natural foods, are you talking about the natural foods that for thousands and thousands of years allowed people to have scurvy, beriberi, pellagra, rickets, etc., to have lowered immune system health where they caught Bubonic plague and Spanish influenza, to slowly die off from malnutrition, etc?  Natural foods are excellent and preferred but one has to have intuitive, tacit, and/or obtained knowledge about what one is eating, where it comes from, when and how to harvest it, how to prepare it, how much of it is safe to eat, what to combine it with, etc.  And I've given you reasons why, for most people, they're simply not enough in the modern world but you selectively chose to ignore that information.

I am curious as to why you think that if you or your parents weren't knowledgeable enough to eat and care for your body correctly in the past, you suddenly, on the basis of reading a couple of books, have the expertise and authority to be so sure about what you are saying?

We've had discussions in the past about such things as financial and investment issues and I was stunned at some of the poor choices you made, given that you seem like a reasonably intelligent person.  Unfortunately, you seem to be as mistaken in your knowledge and understanding of the full scope of nutrition as you were about money issues.  If you derive pleasure from stubbornly clinging to opinions and beliefs that you've adopted despite their erroneous nature, that's your choice and I don't want to deprive you of that but I'm personally not interested in carrying this discussion any further on my part since I think the cause is fruitless.

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Fun with quotes!

Davos wrote:

Until recently I didn't comprehend the meaning of what Hawkings wrote.  I get it now.  You might want to give it some careful consideration my friend.

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.”~Stephen Hawkings

ao wrote:

You don't know what you don't know.

I see your Hawking (not Hawkings - note the irony), and your [paraphrase of Rumsfeld's "known knowns"(?)], and raise you:

a Twain - "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

a Shaw - "Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."

a Thucydides - "Ignorance is bold and knowledge reserved."

and another Twain - "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.”

Happy St. Patrick's Day all. Gonna go outside and play with my son.

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Stoicsmile wrote:Davos

Stoicsmile wrote:

Davos wrote:

Until recently I didn't comprehend the meaning of what Hawkings wrote.  I get it now.  You might want to give it some careful consideration my friend.

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.”~Stephen Hawkings

ao wrote:

You don't know what you don't know.

I see your Hawking (not Hawkings - note the irony), and your [paraphrase of Rumsfeld's "known knowns"(?)], and raise you:

a Twain - "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

a Shaw - "Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."

a Thucydides - "Ignorance is bold and knowledge reserved."

and another Twain - "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.”

Happy St. Patrick's Day all. Gonna go outside and play with my son.

I so love English Majors---especially the ones with 8 years of education waiting tables.  Aside from that "little" hemorrhoid --- I otherwise enjoyed your post.

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I have to agree....

ao wrote:

When you're talking about natural foods, are you talking about the natural foods that for thousands and thousands of years allowed people to have scurvy, beriberi, pellagra, rickets, etc., to have lowered immune system health where they caught Bubonic plague and Spanish influenza, to slowly die off from malnutrition, etc?  Natural foods are excellent and preferred but one has to have intuitive, tacit, and/or obtained knowledge about what one is eating, where it comes from, when and how to harvest it, how to prepare it, how much of it is safe to eat, what to combine it with, etc.  And I've given you reasons why, for most people, they're simply not enough in the modern world but you selectively chose to ignore that information.

I have to agree with ao. 

Something I've learned only since moving to the country, embracing Permaculture, and growing our own food, is just how much there is to healthy food......  Australia, where I live, is blessed with some of the poorest soils in the world.  Our farmers grow things in it alright, but only by injecting shedloads of NPK, and rarely anything else.  Aussie soils are so micro nutrient poor, that the food grown here may keep you alive, but it won't keep you healthy, no matter how "natural" it might be, especially after having been sprayed with god knows what....!

Our soils are Calcium, Magnesium, Iodine, Boron,  Manganese and Molybdenum deficient.  I'm sure I've left some out.  Some of those things you can overdose and die from, but are essential in minute amounts to keep your system working, keeping it capable of absorbing those things you eat so that they are actually beneficial.

The following are considered essential micronutrients: cobalt, copper, chromium, fluorine, iron, iodine, manganese, molybdenum, selenium and zinc.

On the other hand, nickel, tin, vanadium, silicon, boron have recently been found as important micronutrients, whereas aluminum, arsenic, barium, bismuth, bromine, cadmium, germanium, gold, lead, lithium, mercury, rubidium, silver, strontium, titanium and zirconium is all found in plant and animal tissue, yet their importance is still being determined.

To view detailed information on any specific element listed underneath, please click the appropriate hyperlink:

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Davos wrote: Stoicsmile

Davos wrote:

Stoicsmile wrote:

Davos wrote:

Until recently I didn't comprehend the meaning of what Hawkings wrote.  I get it now.  You might want to give it some careful consideration my friend.

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.”~Stephen Hawkings

ao wrote:

You don't know what you don't know.

I see your Hawking (not Hawkings - note the irony), and your [paraphrase of Rumsfeld's "known knowns"(?)], and raise you:

a Twain - "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

a Shaw - "Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."

a Thucydides - "Ignorance is bold and knowledge reserved."

and another Twain - "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.”

Happy St. Patrick's Day all. Gonna go outside and play with my son.

I so love English Majors---especially the ones with 8 years of education waiting tables.  Aside from that "little" hemorrhoid --- I otherwise enjoyed your post.

ROTFLMAO.  And to think, ya didn't even have to drop the M bomb.;-)

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Preach what you Practice.

I tried very hard not to get involved in this "discussion", but as one of the few people in this community who is actually a trained and experienced acupuncturist, I felt obliged to preach what I have practiced.

In my real world experience, acupuncture is good for one thing, pain management. It doesn't cure or fix any problem, it just temporarily interrupts the neurological expression of physical pain. 

Would this skill-set be useful in a situation where one did not have access to traditional healthcare? Absolutely.

Is this skill set something that a layman can learn from books? I have serious doubts.

Regarding homeopathy, I quit my certification course in homeopathy on the second day, when the instructor stated that the homepathic remedy is diluted to the point of containing no pharmacologically active molecules. As the son of a chemistry professor, I wasn't equipped to suspend disbelief on that subject.

However, I have a colleague and good friend that is a very successful homeopath. His success has nothing to do with homeopathy, and everything to do with his remarkable personality. I call him Dr. Placebo because he is an expert in the application of the placebo-effect.

Best...Jeff

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thanks Jag and Bill

Bill  

thanks for your input.  I made mention about placebo, because for every disease process there is  almost always a  neurological/psychological component.  People in a chronically anxious state will chronically secrete catecholamines from their adrenal glands.  These hormones work well when being chased by a saber toothed tiger, but have a degrading effect on the body and inhibit the immune system if exposed chronically.  This is probably why the people who care enough, but also "don't really give a sh#&", , tend to survive cancer more often.  So ultimately, the psychological state has an impact on the physical state.   

When you look at the literature for the treatment of overactive bladder, response rates to the medications are often around 65%.  pretty good, right?  However, response rates to placebo are usually around 50%.  It doesn't mean that their problem is in their head.  They have a real physical problem, but their is a signficant neuro/psychological component.  As you can see, medication is better than placebo, but the majority of the response is still probably placebo in nature. 

Suppose you have an arthritic knee and that knee hurts.  Well, there is no pain unless you have a brain to interpret the pain.  the brain's interpretation of the pain is highly affected by state of mind, particularly anxiety or depression.  When I perform vasectomies, I will offer my patient's a single dose of valium prior to the procedure.  this is an anxiety medication, but has no specific effect on the pain receptors.  Although the patient's awake during the procedure, when they are relaxed, their perception of pain is much different than an anxious patient that did not take the medication.  

JAG

If in your experience, acupuncture works well in the treatment of either chronic or acute pain, then I think it is well worth it to keep up your practice.  I know that a significant portion of doctor visits and medical expenditures go to the treatment of chronic pain states.  Even within my own urology practice, I see plenty of people of for chronic pain, including pelvic pain, back pain, guys with "sore balls", etc.  Often I can help them out (without the use of narcotics),  However, many times there is no identifiable physicial problem and pain is difficult to successfully treat..  Perhpas a very usefull skill in the future.  Of course maintaining sterile needles in a resource scarce world may be a problem. 

Brian

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bluestone wrote: JAG Even

bluestone wrote:

JAG

Even within my own urology practice, I see plenty of people of for chronic pain, including pelvic pain, back pain, guys with "sore balls", etc.  Often I can help them out (without the use of narcotics),  However, many times there is no identifiable physicial problem and pain is difficult to successfully treat.

Dr. Brian,

I actually no longer practice acupuncture, having found a much more effective and longer lasting pain relief method called Trigger Point Therapy. No needles required, and it's easy enough to learn and practice that my 4 year old uses it on us old folk nearly everyday.

In our pain clinic, we have cases of chronic pelvic and testicular pain referred to us by a local urologist on a regular basis. 

Some information that might interest you:

  • A trigger point in the Adductor Magnus muscle refers a cramping-like pain that is experienced deep in pelvis. In women, this referred pain is often mistaken for PMS cramping or symptoms associated with endometriosis, but in men it usually classified as idiopathic. (more info)
  • Trigger points in the Abdominal Oblique muscles are frequently responsible for idiopathic testicular pain in men. 

Most healthcare professionals recognize referred pain from internal organs like the heart or gallbladder, but few recognize that the musclular system is the body's largest internal organ, and capable of referring pain as well. 

If you have any interest in learning the protocol that we use in our practice for these complaints, please PM me.

Best...Jeff

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Semi-bogus but love a placebo,safer than some surgery

A vote for puting this in the crystal catagory.  Very hard to design a controlled trial.  (Very smart scam).  There are more than fifteen major maps indicating meridians for different effects.  Also smart but suspicious.  Long evolved scams are still scams.  Throw out the accupuncture but keep the placebo.

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more than one way to skin a cat

JAG wrote:

bluestone wrote:

JAG

Even within my own urology practice, I see plenty of people of for chronic pain, including pelvic pain, back pain, guys with "sore balls", etc.  Often I can help them out (without the use of narcotics),  However, many times there is no identifiable physicial problem and pain is difficult to successfully treat.

Dr. Brian,

I actually no longer practice acupuncture, having found a much more effective and longer lasting pain relief method called Trigger Point Therapy. No needles required, and it's easy enough to learn and practice that my 4 year old uses it on us old folk nearly everyday.

In our pain clinic, we have cases of chronic pelvic and testicular pain referred to us by a local urologist on a regular basis. 

Some information that might interest you:

  • A trigger point in the Adductor Magnus muscle refers a cramping-like pain that is experienced deep in pelvis. In women, this referred pain is often mistaken for PMS cramping or symptoms associated with endometriosis, but in men it usually classified as idiopathic. (more info)
  • Trigger points in the Abdominal Oblique muscles are frequently responsible for idiopathic testicular pain in men. 

Most healthcare professionals recognize referred pain from internal organs like the heart or gallbladder, but few recognize that the musclular system is the body's largest internal organ, and capable of referring pain as well. 

If you have any interest in learning the protocol that we use in our practice for these complaints, please PM me.

Best...Jeff

And if one still has pelvic or testicular pain of somatic origin that doesn't respond to trigger point therapy, one can always use joint/spinal segmental mobilization/manipulation procedures.;-)

http://www.maitrise-orthop.com/corpusmaitri/orthopaedic/mo70_maigne_thoracolumbar/index.shtml

And if that fails, sometimes nociceptive reflexes can still be present which respond within seconds to neuroreflexive inhibitory techniques (unpublished and proprietarily protected).

Or how about considering the pyramidalis for pelvic pain?

http://www.webmanmed.com/disorders/disorders_files/musclgd/abdom/14193694.html

Etc, etc., etc.;-)

Or maybe, just maybe, the dreaded .... homeopathy for ob/gyn problems (such as was done for my mother).  Jeff, try rhus tox sometime on a ganglion cyst and watch it physically disappear forever and tell me if that is a placebo effect.  Very similar to using verapamil transdermal gel on a Dupuytren's contracture.  Or use it on a pet and tell me if that is a placebo effect.  As I've said before, just because their explanation for how it works may be in error, doesn't mean that it can't be used to positive benefit.  Just so it's unequivocally clear, I think any scientifically knowledgeable individual would understand that HOMEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK BY MEANS OF CHEMISTRY no more than a vaccine doesn't work by means of chemistry. 

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acupuncture and the ANS

JAG wrote:

I tried very hard not to get involved in this "discussion", but as one of the few people in this community who is actually a trained and experienced acupuncturist, I felt obliged to preach what I have practiced.

In my real world experience, acupuncture is good for one thing, pain management. It doesn't cure or fix any problem, it just temporarily interrupts the neurological expression of physical pain. 

Would this skill-set be useful in a situation where one did not have access to traditional healthcare? Absolutely.

Is this skill set something that a layman can learn from books? I have serious doubts.

Regarding homeopathy, I quit my certification course in homeopathy on the second day, when the instructor stated that the homepathic remedy is diluted to the point of containing no pharmacologically active molecules. As the son of a chemistry professor, I wasn't equipped to suspend disbelief on that subject.

However, I have a colleague and good friend that is a very successful homeopath. His success has nothing to do with homeopathy, and everything to do with his remarkable personality. I call him Dr. Placebo because he is an expert in the application of the placebo-effect.

Best...Jeff

While pain modulation is a primary use of accupuncture, using it to influence sympathetic and/or parasympathetic nervous system activity is also a useful application.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165183899000909

P.S.  Jeff, I'll give you bonus points if you know why accupuncture to the ear stimulated the parasympathetic nervous system.

With regards to homeopathy, see my other post.

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Mr. Alpha Omega

You know ao, when I wrote "I tried very hard not to get involved in this 'discussion'..." , I was referring to your demonstrated inability to discuss any health related subject without taking it personal.

Lighten up buddy, nobody is attacking your credibility here, we are just offering our opinions for consideration.

My apologies if I offended you in some way.

Best....Jeff

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Preach what you Practice.

JAG wrote:
Regarding homeopathy, I quit my certification course in homeopathy on the second day, when the instructor stated that the homepathic remedy is diluted to the point of containing no pharmacologically active molecules. As the son of a chemistry professor, I wasn't equipped to suspend disbelief on that subject.

However, I have a colleague and good friend that is a very successful homeopath. His success has nothing to do with homeopathy, and everything to do with his remarkable personality. I call him Dr. Placebo because he is an expert in the application of the placebo-effect.

Best...Jeff

I have a friend who was a homeopath.  She always looked terrible, really unhealthy, often sick.  She self medicated homeopathic treatments, they never worked, she gave the game away.

Mike

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JAG wrote:  You know ao,

JAG wrote:

You know ao, when I wrote "I tried very hard not to get involved in this 'discussion'..." , I was referring to your demonstrated inability to discuss any health related subject without taking it personal.

Lighten up buddy, nobody is attacking your credibility here, we are just offering our opinions for consideration.

My apologies if I offended you in some way.

Best....Jeff

Jeff.

You're mistaking passion about a subject and a passion for accuracy and thoroughness related to that subject with taking it personally.  There's nothing about any of your statements that was offensive nor did I feel you were attacking my credibility nor did I say anything to that effect.  But regardless, there's no need to apologize and I hope you didn't take offense to my statements either.  But if I come across something that I disagree with or feel could be misleading to others or leaves out some essential information, I'm going to say it. 

How about the bonus point question?;-)  

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The End of Modern Medicine Is Coming

WHO Chief: The End of Modern Medicine Is Coming

What would the world look like if an injury from a minor infection could kill you? Where bacterial illnesses like strep had no treatment? Where the risk of infection made it too dangerous for simple, routine surgeries such as hip replacements? Where the risk of infection would be great enough to render chemotherapy useless?

According to Margaret Chan, the director general of the World Health Organization, this could soon be reality. At a meeting with infection disease experts in Copenhagen, she stated simply that every antibiotic in the arsenal of modern medicine may soon become useless due to the rise of antibiotic resistant diseases. The Independent quoted her explaining the ramifications:

“A post-antibiotic era means, in effect, an end to modern medicine as we know it. Things as common as strep throat or a child’s scratched knee could once again kill.”

She continued: “Antimicrobial resistance is on the rise in Europe, and elsewhere in the world. We are losing our first-line antimicrobials.

“Replacement treatments are more costly, more toxic, need much longer durations of treatment, and may require treatment in intensive care units.

“For patients infected with some drug-resistant pathogens, mortality has been shown to increase by around 50 per cent.

“Some sophisticated interventions, like hip replacements, organ transplants, cancer chemotherapy, and care of preterm infants, would become far more difficult or even too dangerous to undertake.”

Around the world, more and more pathogens are spreading which don’t respond to any known antibiotic drugs. In India, there has been a recent outbreak of drug-resistant TB. And in the US, the CDC warns that a new strain of gonorrhea is on the rise – and it is resistant to most forms of antibiotics. The agency warns that it’s only a matter of time before we start seeing outbreaks of untreatable STIs. (And the fact that sex education in the US rarely warns teens how to adequately protect themselves from STIs probably won’t help.)

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Mirv
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Drug resistance and local community development

thank you Matrix damner.  This is a very interesting and important topic, which has an unexplored aspect relating to post crash community development. In a world where: a. less movement of foods and people, b. locavore (local food production) c. local determination and control (ie. non-use of antibiotic use in animal husbandry) it is quite possible that local communities can reassert some control over this aspect of their health.  An interesting feature which is mentioned occasionally in the literature is the ability to expunge drug resistant strains from a local community partly by encouraging and working with native strains that can slightly out-compete the resistant bugs because the resistance genes require some energy/effort to maintain, and eventually can be removed from a population if the drug challenge is removed and healthy practices restored.  In a bankster/government mobster internationalized world this is not possible, but in a post collapse community based (local food, little movement from outside) a community could reassert some control over this parameter.   but this requires a science-informed understanding of biology.  I think that this will be a new field of practical science for a young person to get into for a great vocation.  Community control of microflora made possible by post crash community development.  Some hospitals are working on this topic but this could be done on a community level that takes into account food production. 

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